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I think it's going to be more important than ever that #Mastodon and the #fediverse are not centrally operated out of the US unlike almost every other social media platform out there.
Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Eugen Rochko

100% agree. US stands a good chance of becoming much more oligarchic under Trump, with politics starting to seep into how the company leaders operate.

They won’t call it that obviously, because they’ll be oblivious to it. But politics it will be regardless.

They’ll call it business, but it will be politics agreed to in back rooms instead of government corridors.

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Toni Aittoniemi

@gimulnautti
> US stands a good chance of becoming much more oligarchic under Trump, with politics starting to seep into how the company leaders operate

Both the GoP and the DataFarmers have been looking with approval at the close relationship between the CCP and TenCent, ByteDance, Weibo, Baidu etc. The GoP because they imagine themselves being in charge of the DataFarms, like the CCP are in charge of theirs. The DataFarmers because they know in the US it's the other way around ...

@Gargron

in reply to Toni Aittoniemi

with politics starting to seep into how the company leaders operate

Always has been.

in reply to Luca Sironi

@luca I suspect the EU in general is suddenly realizing the dangers of being so reliant on the US as a defense and trading partner, and certain parts of the EU becoming emboldened to push a bit quicker down the path to fascist rule (without looking at any of the consequences). Supporting a social media platform sadly won't align with either imperative
in reply to Offbeatmammal

@Offbeatmammal @luca
what got us into this mess is centralized social media

decentralized social media that is a serious player on the world's stage is the solution

however, you are correct that supporting a platform (or rather, this is a protocol) might not mean much. because

1. we are too tiny to matter now
1. if we ever could grow as big as we needed to be to matter, it might be too late

worth a try though

but we need to get very serious about it, very quick

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Offbeatmammal @luca I feel like if this fediverse is to grow and thrive it needs to be more than just a confederation.

It feels like the first US Republic/Constitution.

I feel like we need some way to be more united without being more centralized.

I'm not sure what that looks like or how to do it. More shared governance maybe? Idk.

But the racism here is the first roadblock to growing, I think. I'm not sure how to fight it one server at a time.

in reply to CohenTheBlue

Yes

An extension to the mastodon server pact

Representing simple good governance

No bigots (same as we have)

No plutocrats (so that's a no to threads and bluesky, something we don't have yet, but we can make)

Other foundational things

All in the service of making it so appealing no one wants to be on centralized shit

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @cohentheblue @Offbeatmammal @luca I feel like there needs to be some entity that provides enforcement of a limited set of civility expectations.

A moderating entity over multiple platforms. Maybe it has first crack at potential offending posts and the server the offender is on has veto power.

The uneven enforcement of moderating is a major problem.

in reply to Philip Cardella

@philip_cardella @cohentheblue @Offbeatmammal @luca
good point, but i'd like to abstract from it:

moderation is per server. that doesn't mean you couldn't have the same mods on multiple servers. or you could have individual mods on individual servers, but they are all in this mastonserverpact+, that binds them to a code of mod conduct

it doesn't need to be centralized top down control, in fact i think that's counterproductive

it just has to be voluntary coordinated agreement

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

in reply to Oliphantom Menace

i agree

all you have to do is browse # fediblock and see the dreary reality

endless whack-a-mole

it has to be allowlist. blocklist sucks

it's also not a barrier as any server could sign up and join and agree to the pact

then defederate if they prove to be incompetent/ lying edgelords intent on trolling/ go AWOL/ etc

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @oliphant @philip_cardella @cohentheblue @Offbeatmammal @luca I vote for better user education at the front end on how to block preemptively rather than have people exposed to the hate and have to respond to it, too, and regularly endure microtraumas.
in reply to The Ferridge

i gave you follow. give me a follow or bookmark my profile if you don't like handing out follows. i'll pin it. give me a month or two

i got a whole bunch of "wouldn't it be neat if..."

like most of us i think, about mastodon

but then we never do it because we have other priorities

but after this election, i'm making it a priority

ps: it's nothing new. i'm not claiming some amazing discovery. but it's radical for here

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Oliphantom Menace

@oliphant @benroyce @philip_cardella @cohentheblue @Offbeatmammal @luca
There is a difference between an #openweb path, what the Fediverse is now, and a #closedweb path, which is what quite a few people are likely unthinkingly pushing.

And yes, the actual path is more complex and messy than these, but it's a subject we need to be clear on.

#4opens #linking

in reply to witchescauldron

@witchescauldron @oliphant @philip_cardella @cohentheblue @Offbeatmammal @luca
Let me ask you this:

Allowlist but joining is simply a matter of checkboxung a pledge to a server pact (and then noobs are watched for being lying edgelords/ incompetent moderation/ AWOL/ etc)

I don't find that to be different from blocklist

The difference to me is the poor mods aren't slave to # fediblock and an endless litany of toxic sludge. I certainly don't think of it as a stale walled garden

in reply to Philip Cardella

@philip_cardella @benroyce @Offbeatmammal @luca
There is a project for this https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/search?q=OGB and yes we do need native governance, not another centralised imposition,
in reply to witchescauldron

@witchescauldron @philip_cardella @Offbeatmammal @luca
Agreed

A more robust server pact

That's voluntary. There is no centralization. Then the servers police each other for violations

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce

Centralized social media was perhaps the last straw, but there were many other straws.

Respectfully, I suggest we should not look for single causes, nor singular solutions, when dealing with something as complex as human society and culture.

If we ever needed a comprehensive understanding of the myriad factors—and their interactions—which generate conflict, and drive destruction of the environment, we need it now.
@Offbeatmammal @luca @Gargron

in reply to Darth Poligofsky

well said and agreed. especially on the last point. such that going to war on centralized social media with decentralized social media doesn't remotely solve all of our problems nor addresses all the reasons we are here. it's just something we *can* do
Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Offbeatmammal @luca I would add it’s social media that’s optimised for seeking attention, combined with the ad-driven business model that got us into this mess for real.

”Show me the incentives and I will show you the results.”
-Charlie Munger

Dishonesty about the business model’s inescapable results. Ignoring the academia, who were giving the warning signs since 2014. 1990’s legislation for 2020’s technology.

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to thibault

@thibault I think it is a good thing that that is done on server level so people have a choice.
If Mastodon wants to play a serious role in the social media landscape things are a little bit more complicated as black&white.
@Gargron
in reply to 🦊 Paul Schoonhoven 🍉 🍋

@vosje62 @thibault
i think it's pretty black and white that threads is the same company whose algos got us into this mess

i think anyone who sees working with meta as benign is naive, at best

and i think mastodon not blocking threads is deeply unserious

you don't get "to play a serious role" serving the very same malice that mastodon was created to oppose

you get laughed at and then discarded

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce, @vosje62, @thibault

But you didn't respond to Paul's point. Wasn't the whole point of Mastodon to provide an *alternative* client for an *open* network that no individual or company needs permission to use, allowing for a plurality of values and policies across instances?

By all means, pick an inherently walled technology if that's what you want, but asking Mastodon to be that seems like asking Mastodon not to be Mastodon.

Strypey reshared this.

in reply to Steve Barnes

I think at this point we're well past the "if you don't let plutocrats and nazis on your network you're a hypocrite" argument, wouldn't you agree?

Freedom doesn't mean letting actors who oppose freedom free reign- a logically sound point. There is no contradiction

Because we're talking about a social contract

I grant you as much rights as I grant myself

If you use those rights to say someone doesn't deserve rights, you've voided the contract and I owe you nothing

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce, @vosje62

I'm not invoking that argument. Freedom to instantiate and manage a server does allow a platform to (ridiculously) oppose such freedom, but of course doesn't amount to the right not to be blocked by anyone or everyone.

in reply to Steve Barnes

i'm confused, maybe

this point: "ridiculously"

what do you mean

do you agree that the only way social media will ever function is if you block bigotry and trolls?

is that "opposing freedom" in your view?

i could be completely wrong, i'm just not getting a good bead on what you're saying here perhaps

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce, @vosje62

We seemed to be talking about the act of criticizing or opposing the policy that permits such criticism to begin with (such as a person exercising their right to free speech by vocally opposing free speech).

I agree that act is silly and obviously self-contradictory, but I don't think that means it should be an exception to protected speech. Free speech by nature permits all kinds of silly and ridiculous speech.

in reply to Steve Barnes

@Starfia @vosje62

what do you think of this:

everyone is assumed the right to free speech

but if you use that speech to attack freedom, you've abrogated the right

i'm not saying anything original nor profound

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

"We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal"

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

this isn't some weird moralistic hangup

it's purely functional

if someone uses their freedom, to destroy freedom, and we let them, then freedom itself will perish

therefore you must deny freedom to those who oppose freedom. to protect freedom

there's no contradiction nor hypocrisy

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce, @vosje62

I fathom the reasoning.

But we're talking about speech, are we not? There's no destruction of freedom without someone actually doing something.

If someone amusingly uses the open Web to argue against the open Web, others get to criticize or ignore them. If they start taking hammers to servers, others should be able to call the police.

in reply to Steve Barnes

@benroyce, @vosje62

But it shouldn't happen that people are entitled to call police because someone else is using the open Web to argue against the open Web.

I don't think that's contradictory either; yours and mine are just two responses to the same problem. Mastodon's response happens to resemble mine, while people are suggesting Eugen switch to one that resembles yours. It's possible; it's just never been Eugen's goal, and those people seem not even to understand that.

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Steve Barnes

@Starfia @vosje62

What's weird to me:

Freedoms: we agree

Those who oppose freedoms: we are both opposed to those who oppose freedoms

Opposition to Opposition to freedoms: i say yes that's what i am doing. you say no, that's wrong. But it's exactly what you're doing, in your own words, in your previous comment

It's almost like you're hesitant to embrace what I am saying, but if you thought about what you yourself are saying, you'll see we're saying the same thing

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@Starfia @vosje62

As for "some guy opposes freedoms but he should be allowed to talk and be argued with." But that's what bigotry is. "This race/ religion/ sex/ orientation/ etc isn't equal": yeah, nah. we just squash it

Because there's nothing to argue with

It's just dishonesty and malice. There's nothing to gain and what they are saying is done in bad faith. Nothing is achieved by engaging with it, it's just toxic crap to lose, to improve the social commons. Or have it descend into bullshit

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce

(Thanks for staying with me. And good to meet you someplace on the Internet, by the way.)

• Do you agree with those who hold opinion x?

• Do you think people should be forbidden to express opinion x?

You're telling me I'll discover those two questions are identical if I think about it, but the difference seems obvious. Why do you think they're identical?

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Steve Barnes

@benroyce

I think you're also wrong about bigotry implying bad faith. "Every person with this hair colour is bad at that activity"? All that's necessary for someone to believe and repeat that in *good* faith is to be taught it by a trusted adult. Eventually asking "is that really true? What is the evidence for it? Who's studied it?", can help finally dispel it.

If people aren't allowed to talk about that stuff, how are the mistaken ones going to think to question what they've learned?

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Steve Barnes

@Starfia

i'm a doctor. i'm trying to talk to other doctors

some dude: "vaccines don't work. vaccines = deep state. vaccines kill" etc

your instance is going to axe the account

because the point is to socialize

not spend your time educating morons on good faith engagement, honesty, and cognitive coherency

the issue isn't the rights of an idiot or troll to destroy social media

the issue is our rights to have a social media experience without lies and noise, some of it organized malice

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@Starfia

that's disinfo. with bigotry it's even worse. with bigotry it isn't about ignorance, by design or honest ignorance, bigotry is about *denying the rights of others*. now we're talking freedom... and now we're talking about people who deny freedom... given freedom to deny freedom???

which destroys freedom

da fuq

"but how will they learn?"

who gives a fuck about some malicious moron?

the point is about *our* social experience, *our* freedom, to be free of toxic, destructive noise

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

"If people aren't allowed to talk about that stuff, how are the mistaken ones going to think to question what they've learned?"

they watch. and they read. and they listen

honesty is about looking and seeing first, then speaking

but if someone comes in spouting bigotry, they aren't listening, they don't want to learn, they've already decided to deny you your freedom

so if they shoot their mouth off and are squelched: "oh no i'm blocked. why? oh, i see, i'm wrong"

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@Starfia

if you say "they aren't going to learn by being blocked, they'll just hate you and be a bigger bigot"

yes, i agree

and that's on them

we all encounter static in life. most of it undeserved. but some of it, we do deserve. and we see the person was right to respond negatively, and we have to change

but some people are like "i say whatever i want, i'm always right, never wrong"

they are the problem in this world

and they never learn

and we don't have to deal with this toxic sludge

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Starfia

Haven't spoken to mother since 2020. I used to joke that her favorite conversation was an argument, but that wasn't accurate. An argument implies two people are saying something at some point. She monologued, & I was lucky to get a few sentences in when she'd go on and on and on.

One night I used the words "Reagan" and "Iran-Contra" in the same sentence. Her 3+ hour tirade afterward is a chunk of time I'll never get back for sure. She just wanted a bobblehead that agreed with her.

When I started having differing opinions & stopped agreeing with her just to keep the peace, she stopped speaking to me. No big loss. I'd been walking on eggshells around her ego for about 35 years and enough was enough. I'm not on social media & don't speak to my family (because they have the same mindset & I was sick of getting bombarded with it on SM), so I don't even know if she's alive. I'm sure she clapped in glee & said plenty of racist shit against Kamala when Trump won.

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Teedi P.

@CaffeinatedBookDragon @Starfia

so many families have been ripped apart by political agendas that are happy to wield bigotry, ignorance, and lies

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Starfia I totally understand remove organized disinfo attacks.
But I think many, many people know someone in their families - otherwise decent people - who can get completely fooled by that. Are they all too far gone? There is the additional problem that people online tend to vent more because in general, there are no consequences... Which adds to the problem Edit: complement
Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to JebKFan

so you block, mute, ban, etc bigotry

and either:

1. the poor kid brought up under bigotry, but still possessing honesty and an ability to learn
2. the dishonest sludgemonster bigot

#1 will perhaps learn

#2 will say "libturds! WHARGARBBBL" and never learn

it is not our job to handhold bigots

they are in the remedial class of life

they have to learn on their own

it is not our job to have our entire social media experience destroyed by their need to learn the basics

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Starfia I would say the question is: who is almost impossible to help, who is too "expensive" to help, and who should be helped immediately. Because when Biden won, I thought "the US can't go on like that with a 40% MAGA vote baseline. It has to go down or the next crisis could put them back in power".
But I am a teacher, so I really like education. A person with psychological issue might too weak to educate others.
in reply to JebKFan

@JebKFan @Starfia

then you've described your personal goal

not the standard for social media

it is absolutely noble of you to decide to figure out the honest ignorants from the dishonest ignorants, and try to help honest ones

it's just that that cannot be the standard for online discourse

because then the ignorants push the signal to noise ratio to a breaking point, and no conversation of any value can proceed for the non-ignorant, and people leave that server, and then the server dies

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@JebKFan @Starfia
IMHO
One needs to ask a simple question here. Is Mastodon gaining more by this than threads is? By "gaining" I mean all positive things and they need to be offset by any negative ones (for example becoming dependent)
Note I consider inproving threads a negative thing.
Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Asbestos

@Asbestos @benroyce @JebKFan @Starfia Threads is getting plausible deniability on Monopoly claims as well as the chance to show ads to and collect data from Fediverse users.

They don’t need us just like Google doesn’t really need Firefox.

in reply to JebKFan

@JebKFan blocking people on social media doesn't bar me of helping my neighbour, no matter their political opinion, when they need it. I block bigots but if said bigot happens to need help neer my home, flat tire or something, I'll gladly give a hand. @benroyce @Starfia
in reply to Switch

@switch @benroyce @Starfia Fair, but the question is how help people out of ignorance. We might need social media interaction for that. Sorry if my point wasn't clear.
in reply to JebKFan

@JebKFan @switch @Starfia

and you'll get that

when they are ready

the problem is, for most bigots, they are in the same scenario as: "you can't cure alcoholism until the alcoholic first agrees that they have a problem"

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

(1/2)

@benroyce
> if someone uses their freedom, to destroy freedom, and we let them, then freedom itself will perish

I'm reminded of a video I saw of then-California Governor Arnie from Terminator. Who probably assumed he'd be free to give a political speech without getting egged on the way to the podium. But then he ...

@Starfia @vosje62

in reply to Strypey

(2/2)
"... got an egg in the chest while walking out to give a speech during his special-election run to replace Gray Davis as governor of California in 2003."

https://www.fastcompany.com/90321594/watch-arnold-schwarzeneggers-defense-of-political-eggings

Did he respond by egging the guy back, or otherwise visiting retribution on him?

in reply to Strypey

(3/3)

Nope.

"As the video shows, Schwarzenegger calmly shed his sport coat, and allowed security to wipe him off. He did not retaliate. Instead, he cracked some jokes (and in a longer clip, defends egging as a necessary part of free speech and vibrant political discourse): 'This guy owes me bacon now', he told reporters about the unidentified assailant."

https://www.fastcompany.com/90321594/watch-arnold-schwarzeneggers-defense-of-political-eggings

in reply to Strypey

i don't understand what point you're trying to make

are you confusing racism, homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, etc., our real topic, with arnie getting egged?

our real topic is dehumanization. rights destruction. bigotry. freedom denial

you don't deal with that gracefully. no one can. because it's endless hate. it's not a one-off political event showing arnie has good style

you're confusing jaywalking with murder

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Starfia @vosje62 Very logical and I don't judge you... but Germany has been banning Nazi discourse, has a crazy past, and yet the far-right is one the rise again. I'm no sure that strategy works.
And to the uniformed person, we might look like the bad guys.
in reply to JebKFan

@JebKFan @Starfia @vosje62

who cares if a bad guy thinks we're the bad guys?

and ignorance and indecency will be with us forever

it's not like germany beat nazism and then that's settled for all of human history

ignorance and indecency is just the toxic sludge of society and it's a constant maintenance effort to contain them

forever

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Starfia @vosje62 The question is: how do you distinguish between the honest and dishonest ignorant? Honest ignorant people are often way, way overconfident.
in reply to JebKFan

@JebKFan @Starfia @vosje62

by serious and sustained effort

which most people don't have. and we can't demand they do in a social media environment

you do have that

which is noteworthy and admirable

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Starfia @vosje62 And here is why the problem of moderation on social media, especially when people don't want to pay to use the service.
Probably more complex that rocket science, Mr Musk.
in reply to JebKFan

@JebKFan @Starfia @vosje62

it should never be paid for. because then the free shit-tier will dominate. i mean it already does, but paying for it won't solve the problem. because 99.999% will never pay for it. the solution lies elsewhere

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Starfia @vosje62 I meant only one, mandatory but very cheap subscription fee, otherwise you see nothing. It would be better for privacy and aggressive marketing as well...
Other option: a Gov provide social media, as an alternative? People in the US will think it's like the Pravda, but if you can have an independent justice system, you should be able to have that in a state-run social media.
in reply to JebKFan

i got another idea

i see you follow me

give me a month or two

watch this space

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Starfia @vosje62 This is similar to what we learned on the online world. If you have a online community that is dedicated to free speech no matter what, the trolls will always destroy it.

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce @Starfia @vosje62 You are already not allowed speech that incites violence or could cause harm to others. We just need to expand the term 'harm' to include 'inciting fascism'. The Germans have already modeled many of these speech-restrictions in their constitution.

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Kevin E. Walsh

@whaleknives @whknott @Starfia @vosje62

there is nothing wrong with pro-Palestine speech

there is everything wrong with anti-Israel speech

the error is assuming something pro-palestinian is anti-israeli, or something pro-israeli is anti-palestinian

any speech pro-something is fine and good. any speech against a people is evil

so what we do is we have pro-palestine pro-israel speech: pro-people

the problem is the parasites ripping people apart: fuck netanyahu *and* fuck hamas

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

Corporations should not have "free speech" for propaganda and buying candidates. The "Supreme" Court destroyed our democracy. I hate them. This is also part of the tax-exempt system where billionaires avoid paying any taxes with "charity" to political activists.
Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce
> everyone is assumed the right to free speech

> but if you use that speech to attack freedom, you've abrogated the right

This is not a license granting permissions. It's an *inalienable* right.

Imagine if I argued;

Everyone has the freedom to grant or withdraw their labour.

But if you use that labour to attack that freedom, you've abrogated the right, so you get sold as a slave.

See the problem?

@Starfia @vosje62

in reply to Strypey

100% absolutely completely wrong

every right is a responsibility

when someone uses a right with irresponsible behavior which results in harm, they lose that right

whether explicitly, by crime and punishment

or implicitly, by pissing everyone else off and making them hate the irresponsible use of a right to abuse others

you need to learn this

this is an ironclad rule

says me?

no, says simple cause and effect

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce
I have no idea who is right or wrong in this.
What I do know is that the right to freedom of speech does not imply the right to be heard.
There are reasons I walked away from both Meta and Twitter.
And all Meta and X servers are blocked on my instance as soon as they surface.
@strypey @Starfia @vosje62

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Steve Barnes

@Starfia I think you are right. The open structure is the basics of the system. So far there are enough 'unwanted servers' around that don't get federated. With Threads it is not different.

- Both servers and individuals can set the bounderies they want. -
(that is why the options are there!)

That's is how it works for all parties.

@benroyce @thibault

in reply to 🦊 Paul Schoonhoven 🍉 🍋

but more importantly that subset of servers that does block all of dark fedi and threads and bluesky and gab and truth social, etc, are those servers expressing the freedom of the network the best

because you fail to comprehend the threat plutocrat, bigoted, and fascist actors represent to the freedom of the network

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)

Ben Royce 🇺🇦 reshared this.

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

such opinions show how good it is that everybody can host a fediverse (not only Mastodon) server itself. So no admin can censor the network for me because he/she thinks that there is a dark fediweb e.g.

That makes the fediverse a great network.

@vosje62 @Starfia @thibault

in reply to BjoernAusGE

@bjoern @vosje62 @Starfia @thibault

agreed

someone can make any network they want

any rules they want

but if their rules suck (bigotry, etc), they're relegated to obscurity

as they should be

We simply let the pieces fall where they may, and we stop pretending bigotry and tolerance can coexist

they can't

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

Beeing honest: i dont like it when users put pressure on admins of big instances to block other whole instances because they dont like the way they operate, or because they belong to companys like Meta etc. Its something totally different if admins block instances that are legally problematic.

If somebody does not like that fact that eg mastodon.social federates with Bluesky etc. he/she is free to block the mentionings for themselfs, switch to another Mastodon Instance with a different block policy or to run an own fediverse server.

The fediverse has that possibilities which you dont have when using x etc

From my point of view that is way better than to censor the network for all other users on the server.

@vosje62 @Starfia @thibault

in reply to BjoernAusGE

@bjoern @vosje62 @Starfia @thibault

nothing you said disagrees with anything i said

a mastodonserverpact+ that says no to threads and bluesky doesn't mean you have to join it. it also doesn't mean servers aren't willing to join the + pact of their own free will. this is voluntary, coordinated group action

if it is appealing enough along with other provisions in the + pact it will grow and be successful

and, forgive my directness: who gives a shit if someone doesn't like it

it's voluntary

in reply to Ben Royce 🇺🇦

@benroyce, @bjoern, @vosje62, @thibault

Ben –

The question you seemed to raise initially, which I still believe us to be discussing, is whether blocking should occur at the Mastodon server level, or whether Mastodon itself should do it.

Paul and I thought it should occur at the server level, as it indeed does.

You seemed to think Mastodon itself should do it, criticising "Mastodon not blocking Threads," and that Mastodon was "created to oppose" what you believe should always be blocked.

in reply to Steve Barnes

@benroyce, @bjoern, @vosje62, @thibault

But since then, you've repeatedly suggested server instances and individuals should do the blocking, seemingly agreeing with Paul and me after all.

So, did I misunderstand your stance on this specific point from the start?

in reply to Steve Barnes

@Starfia

yeah sorry. it was shorthand by thibault. and it fouled him up to in the miscomm too. c'est la vie:

https://mastodon.social/@benroyce/113435610459383475


@collectifission @thibault
i think thibault is only asking eugen to block threads from mastodon.social

in reply to thibault

@thibault
Gargron: "it's important that we're not centrally operated"
You: "ok, so make this decision, centrally, that will affect every user"

You might have missed the point here.

Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
in reply to Emil Jacobs - Collectifission

@collectifission @thibault
i think thibault is only asking eugen to block threads from mastodon.social
Ten wpis został zedytowany (1 tydzień temu)
Unknown parent

Ben Royce 🇺🇦
@tasket @philip_cardella I have a radical idea. Maybe we need radical. I think it's pretty good but will be controversial. We'll see