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A huge portion of online Greek mythology fandom is currently celebrating Odysseus as their favorite boi.

I keep wanting to bust in like the Kool-Aid man and tell everyone about Palamedes, and what Odysseus did to him...

(But since the Hades and Pesephone dogpile experience, I know better than to argue with the mythology fandom)

#mythology #storytelling #Odysseus

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in reply to Si Fuller

@si_fuller @AndreSolo

*whispers*
Palamedes was an inventor and best friend of Achilles. He invented using writing and maths to keep the whole Greek army organized. He also invented dice and board games to keep the soldiers entertained while stranded. He kept the army healthy and fed through multiple crises under Troy, and invented a system of signal fires for navigation. He was also the only one who could direct Achilles on the battlefield. He did none for glory and wanted none of the spoils.

in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

@si_fuller @AndreSolo

Unfortunately, he was also the one who called Odysseus' bluff when he pretended to be insane so he could avoid going to war. So Odysseus hated him from the get go. And every time Palamedes could do something Odysseus couldn't, Odysseus grew more spiteful.

Long story short, Odysseus came up with a plan to frame Palamedes for treason. And because Palamedes was so popular with the men and Agamemnon was jealous of him, the plan worked. Palamedes was executed for treason.

in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

@si_fuller @AndreSolo

Legend says that centuries later, when Homer wanted to create his epics, there were no people who could tell him what happened under Troy. So he summoned Odysseus' shade to hear the story first hand.

The shade of Odysseus told Homer that he was only willing to tell the tale if Homer swore that he'd leave Palamedes completely out of it. So he did.

(Other sources however do mention him. When I put his story together, it was like a 1000 piece puzzle, but it was worth it.)

in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

@si_fuller @AndreSolo

Side note: this is why Achilles is so incredibly powerful in the Iliad. Because he was originally two people. Brains, and divine brawn. People called Palamedes the Lion-Tamer because he was the only one who could keep up with Achilles and direct his fury in the field. Homer just dropped Palamedes' side from the story.

Also, in this version of the legend, it was not Briseis who sparked Achilles' wrath. It was coming home from a mission and finding his best friend dead.

in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

@si_fuller @AndreSolo

(Oh yeah, Odysseus made sure Achilles was away before he framed Palamedes.)

Also, Palamedes' father was the son of Poseidon, Nauplios. He demanded justice for his son but Agamemnon refused. So later on, when the Greek navy was sailing home, Nauplios used the signal fires (that Palamedes invented) to lead a bunch of them onto the rocks in a storm. That was his revenge.

in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

Or the tragic Odysseus (who betrays Philotectes and Palamedes, who slays Astyanax and insults Hekuba) could be a later evolution of the Homeric or epic Odysseus.

In (Pseudo-)Dares's version, Achilles is a rival of Palamedes too and he is furious when Palamedes gets elected as the new leader of the Greeks after Agamemnon. Paris shoots Palamedes.

In Dictys's version, on the other hand, Odysseus is even worse: he murders Ajax himself.

in reply to 𐌘𐌄𐌓𐌔𐌖

@phersv fair point. I was reading studies that were trying to ascertain whether Palamedes was a part of the Homeric tradition, and omitted on purpose somehow. There were some arguments either way, someone describing a "Palamedes-shaped hole" in the Iliad. But thb just the Homeric Odysseus is not exactly the wholesome hero the fandom wants him to be either
in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

@si_fuller holy satyr, girl! This was awesome, I am so glad I asked :D
Gee those ancient Greeks -and their fans- when they grow spiteful you better get out of their way huh?
in reply to Si Fuller

@si_fuller @AndreSolo Right? He is a great and complex character but he is not like, a "role model" hero. But the fandom bends over backwards to prove that he only did good things and is boyfriend material...
in reply to Si Fuller

@si_fuller @AndreSolo

Also, even apart from Palamedes, Odysses does a bunch of shady stuff. He is the one that suggests Astyanax should be killed. He is also the one who gets Philoktetes abandoned on an island when he is injured. And he tricks Protesilaos into dying to fulfil a prophecy.

in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

@si_fuller yeah well... Han Solo, Jack Sparrow, "sexy trickster" is an archetype easily fetishized haha
in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

@TarkabarkaHolgy, oh, wow, that was a great read.

We had to write an essay in high school about Odysseus and why he's a great hero, and I remember my stupid(er), young(er) 18 y/o self failing, because I argued something in the lines of "IDK, he sounds like a bit of a dick and a bit of a whore, TBH". Nowhere near as well researched or well written, of course!

I did later realise why he's a hero and complex character.

But it does give me pleasure that my original gut feeling was not wrong 😂

Ten wpis został zedytowany (2 tygodnie temu)
in reply to Si Fuller

@si_fuller @AndreSolo

My Persephone controversy in a nutshell:

I don't think Hades & Persephone is a romance. It is a rich, ancient and important myth about grief, loss, and the changing of the seasons. But it is not a romance, and it was never meant to be.

*ducks behind some shields*

in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

Odysseus was essentially a dick. Manipulating everyone around. If manipulation did nor work, he was killing everyone brutally. Whoever joined him, died. Women he cheated and left behind. Could be Elon's role model.

A while ago I even wrote an emotional piece denouncing Odysseus. I will paste it here if I find it.

in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

"A huge portion of online Greek mythology fandom "

There is a "faun-service" joke in there, somewhere. I know it!

ETA: Although, no. That would be the _Roman_ mythological fandom. Nevermind.

Ten wpis został zedytowany (2 tygodnie temu)
in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

Even going by just what's mentioned in Homer, Odysseus comes off like the protagonist in a Tarantino movie: too cool for school, but clearly an asshole if you just stop to think about it for a moment.
in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

in reply to Dr. Zalka Csenge Virág

a friend of mine, a literature professor, when talking about the homeric poems, used to ask "why people side with the invaders? I'm with the defenders, I'm with Hector!"